PART 1 of “OUR ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT GOD”
November 26, 2009
By Kevin M
Thanksgiving Day is a very appropriate day to launch the first post of the OutOfYourRut.com Faith Forum. It’s a day set aside in which we are to be thankful. But a relevant question today—in this largely secular era—is, to whom are we thankful? In the historical context, we all know what the answer to that question is, but what does it mean for us today?
Many argue that faith is personal, that it’s different for all people, and that we must respect people of all faiths, and even those of no faith at all. I agree on all counts. But in this forum, I will put forth my own set of personal beliefs—and those of anyone willing to add to the discussion—under the presumption that if you’re here reading this, you have at least some interest in matters of eternity.
As for my personal beliefs: I am a follower of Jesus Christ, also known as a Christian. Where possible, I will work within an understanding of Jesus Christ from a Biblical standpoint. I am not a minister or priest, not a Bible scholar and not a theologian. But I am attempting to use this forum to be what every follower of Jesus is called to be: a member of the priesthood of believers (1 Peter 2: 4-10).
If you have only a vague idea of what Christianity is about, or had training in it as child but drifted away, or might be curious, please entertain my discussion on the subject. The Christian faith is for anyone and everyone, but especially for those in a difficult place in life. The very mission of Jesus Christ was to reach out to the lost, to the hurting and to sinners. Each of us falls into every one of those categories at one time or another.
My direction—in this series at least—is to approach the discussion of Jesus from the outside in, that is, to analyze the many objections of him and of his teachings which prevent so many from accepting him for what he claimed to be: our messiah.
In this post we’ll begin with one issue which I think is foundational—ideas and comments that begin with the words: But I think God is…
Before we get into that analysis, let’s first spend some time pondering an issue that provides the entire reason such a discussion is even necessary…the rejection of Jesus Christ.
Why is Jesus Christ so “offensive” to so many people?
I can come up with two answers to this question; the first involves the judgment and hypocrisy that often comes from us Christians; we’re most assuredly guilty of this charge, but we’ll tackle that topic in a future post in this series. As to the second…
Do you believe that anyone has the ability to fortell the future? Some people believe in the prophecies of Nostrodamus, the 16th century French chemist who wrote of all sorts of predictions through his quatrains which many believe have come to pass. But here’s another prophecy from an even better known “prophet”, that has unequivocally come to pass:
” If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first…If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also” (John 15:18,20).
Those words were spoken by Jesus Christ nearly 2000 years ago, and they’re as true today as they were then. But why? Why did they hate Jesus then, and why is he still hated today? And since he departed the physical confines of the world nearly 2000 years ago, why does anyone care enough to be offended? Jesus didn’t come to rearange social orders, to topple governments or to change national boundaries. So what was it about him that so many found and still find so displeasing?
Here’s my theory… take a definate position on anything, and one thing is guaranteed: many people will hate you. Jesus was very definate, he spoke with the authority of someone who knows. But in our humaness, we don’t like definate, we prefer the wiggle room that uncertainty provides. People who are definate about things—especially in matters we can loosely call virtue—tend to make us nervous. Though we’re loathe to admit it, at the depths of our souls we’re only too aware of our shortcomings as human beings, of our guilt in the face of truth, and the more powerful the truth that one utters, the more repulsed we are at hearing it.
Does the fact that a teaching offends us make that teaching invalid? That’s what this series will attempt to analyze.
A more modern reason to reject Jesus
In today’s world, there may be an even more basic reason so many dismiss Jesus as irrelevant: fewer people believe in a “god” of any sort.
Previous generations lived a mere heartbeat away from death, and they knew it. It wasn’t at all uncommon for people who grew up before World War II to have experienced the death of an immediate family member, often a childhood sibling. It was hard not to cling to faith as the last, best hope.
But we’re largely insulated from that view of death—if not from death itself—by today’s complex global systems, public safety nets, medical advances, technological breakthroughs and the ever-present and increasingly convincing entertainment media, all of which combine to deliver to us a compelling message that we’re masters of our own destiny. This has become the ultimate “religion” of the 21st century. We don’t like to dwell on death, and like to think that one day death itself will be destroyed by our completely irrepressible, always advancing technology. As an extreme example, some people even choose to freeze their bodies at death, placing their hope in the fact that blessed technology will find a way to resurrect them to new life.
Jesus promised that if we believe in him, we would have eternal life. Eternal life with who? With God. He promised to bring us to glory. What glory? The glory of God. He promised that we’d be delivered from eternal wrath? What wrath? The wrath of God.
But if there is no God, there is no wrath, so why do we even need savior? A savior from what? The question of belief in Jesus Christ then, is even more basic than any objections to his claims and teachings.
Now, back to But I think God is…
OK, this has been an admittedly long wind-up to the main topic in the title of this post, but given the depth of the subject matter, the table first needs to be set and since this is the first post in the series, the intro had to be a long one. I promise to make my main points more quickly in future posts.
I contend that one of the core objections to Jesus Christ is either an absence of belief in a sovereign God, or a lack of understanding of the nature of God. That lack of both belief and understanding is in evidence in the way we speak of God. If we preface our discussions of God with “but I think God is…” what we’re really doing is opening the possibility of creating a God of our own choosing—making God in Man’s image. As a matter of pure logic, that thinking can’t be right.
This assertion starts with a mistaken premise: that the God of the Universe is (or must be) limited to what we think he is or should be. We’re making up our own God from, presumably, a long list of buffet table-like multiple choice items. Is that who God has to be, someone who fits our idea of who he is?
Assuming that were even possible, would a God constructed by any human being be remotely capable of being the God of the Universe? To think as much is a contradiction in terms.
So let’s flip the direction a bit. Rather than beginning a discussion of God with “but I think God is…”, let’s instead start by listing some things God isn’t, based on little more than logic:
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God isn’t constrained by the limits of our understanding
God isn’t constrained by our ideas of right or wrong
God isn’t some sort of cosmic genie waiting to do our bidding in order to prove his existence or worth to humanity
God isn’t constrained by our understanding of science
God isn’t beholden to our individual opinions of who he is
God isn’t beholden to the court of public opinion or even to the court of human law
Some would like to believe in God, but want a god who will “behave” (according to the values of good and evil we hold important). As well intended as that may sound on the surface, it means only accepting a limited god. This is not at all unlike paganism, which established many gods, all of whom had certain powers and certain weaknesses. But those are not gods at all; they’re more akin to super humans. In our own day superhumans take the form of fictional characters present throughout popular culture today. We love power, but only when we think we can control it.
A true God is one who is beyond our imaginations and unconstrained by our personal preferences. In a world where we’re told—and even directed—to be masters of our own destinies, that’s a hard pill to swallow. A true God would have absolute power over us. That’s a frightening proposition isn’t it, maybe even more than we can stand.
But our fear doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist. Either he does or he doesn’t, but if he does, then yes, he has absolute power over us. Our choice then is either to believe or to reject the idea of an all powerful God, not to construct one of our preferences.
Only when we begin to grasp that concept do we begin to develop an understanding of who Jesus Christ is and why we need him. He is our path to that God who has absolute power over us.
If we’re serious about the searching for or knowing God—and we should be—we need to begin by asking the right questions and, more important, not running away from any answers we get.
What are your thoughts on this subject? Must God be who we think he is?
COMING UP NEXT: “MANY PATHS TO THE SAME GOD”
“God is one who is beyond our imaginations”
Very humbling but very true.
.-= Daddy Paul´s last blog ..Roll your 401K over to an IRA =-.
This is an interesting post. I have utmost respect for you following through on your beliefs.
I believe there is always one more question and I also believe (theoretically) that anything is possible. This basically leads me to lean towards the position that there is no god, and if we did find the entity that is good we would just have another question on our hands…. And that would be “where did god come from”. The same goes for finding the creation point of the universe…. where did the point of creating the universe come from… Anyway that is just a glimpse into my beliefs. I respect everyone for what they believe because in short…. I just don’t know and honestly I am quite content and at peace with never knowing. I know the world is the worst most digusting place, yet it is the kindest and most beautiful too.
As for Jesus being offensive… I don’t think he is. If he was real (I mean one guy, much research suggests he may have been 3 or 4 guys at the time) then he was a really swell guys and I commend everything he every did. As for exactly what he said and did we will never know for sure. Even the translations of the bibles followed by most American’s have shown that some of the stories and beliefs being followed slightly wrong. Modern translations of the oldest bibles in Greek (I think) have shown different slants on some of the morals.
Sorry I went off point. Jesus isn’t offensive, anyone in their right mind respects the value system and also he is shared amongst many religions. Both Judaism and Islam hold him in very high extreme and I believe they both cite him as a profit.
What is offensive to me about religion is the things that have been done in it’s name. I don’t want to get political but President Bush used the G word to justify a lot of bad actions and people have used the G word to retaliate. Religion, in it’s organised sense’ has produced probably just as much suffering as it has saved people from themselves.
I think religion is and should be a personal thing but that does not mean it should not be shared with friends and loved ones. However it’s name should not be used lightly, and things should not be justified under the badge of religion without serious thought!
If there is a god that judges then I like to think I will be judged on my good nature, will to fulfill happiness of loved ones and the world in general and the fact that I just try hard to be a good person. If a god judged me on my following of them, I feel that is a bit egotistical and I would rather burn in hell, hang in purgatory or experience whatever kind pain or suffering awaits me.
Ok I better stop here before I write a novel of thoughts (sorry that this comment is a bit unorganised, i’m in a rush)!!!
Good luck with your forum and I hope you get some great conversations and celebrations of faith going on there.
Thanks,
Forest.
http://frugalzeitgeist.com
.-= Forest´s last blog ..Getting Rid Of Ants =-.
“There are no atheists in foxholes.”
Why is this statement so true? Because God is real, and God has put inside all of us knowledge of his existence, whether we choose to believe it or not is up to us.
@Forest: I empathize with what you say about people doing thus & so in the name of God… there have been so many terrible things done in the name of God and of religion. We have to be careful not to look to others for direction on who God is, but instead to look to God himself. You mentioned being a good person, none of us are inherently “good people,” not according to the commandments of God. If we read God’s commandments we will find that we have ALL broken a good deal of them. Where does this leave us before God? Condemned. There are no exceptions. So now what? Well… now we need a savior. The only way for us to be right before God is through that savior. That savior would have had to come to earth, live a faultless life, and die in our stead. That savior is Jesus. He is the way the truth and the life and no man cometh to the Father but by him.
I am the chief of sinners, and I need a savior… I choose Jesus the Christ. Who do you choose? If you choose your own good works, according to the scriptures you will burn in hell. And THAT is why Jesus is offensive to many. Many do not wish to admit that he is the only way to heaven… but he is.
If it were not for Jesus I would go to hell based on my sin, I thank God the father that he sent Jesus to suffer and die for my sin… that I may now be justified to God through his death. Praise him!
.-= Matt Jabs´s last blog ..One World Currency – New World Order =-.
Great post, Kevin! You’ve really done a good job boiling it down to the basics. I also appreciate how you point out that we can’t understand God based on our own ideas of Him. The One True God as Christians describe Him cannot be understood by man’s thinking. This is one of the very fundamental characteristics of the God we worship.
@Forest:
I thank you for being kind and gracious in your comment despite the fact that you don’t necessarily agree with Kevin. Many non-Christians are quick to attack and become angry rather than discuss these issues calmly.
When we’re trying to understand God, we must not rely on our own abilities to think about who He is. If there is an all-powerful God who created the entire universe including us, how can we expect to understand Him or figure Him out? That’s like expecting an ant to comprehend collateralized debt obligations. Where would you begin?
We must begin to ask questions about God by looking at His revelation to us. What has He said about Himself? As a Christian, I find God’s revelation to man in the Bible, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the work of His Holy Spirit (which prompts us to seek Him). So we need to look at what God is saying to us – not what we want to say to or about God.
The question of where God came from is actually irrelevant. If He exists, that’s all we need to know – that He does exist. It doesn’t matter how He came into being, it just matters that He is. The Bible tells us that God has no beginning or end. Now I don’t claim to understand that, but I don’t need to. I just need to know that He exists. I also don’t need to know exactly how He created the universe. (As a side note, I think it’s interesting that the Big Bang Theory can get us all the way back to a “singularity” but can’t explain where that came from. So using the logic you gave, how can we believe in the Big Bang Theory? It doesn’t explain how the universe came into being either.)
As far as Jesus being who He said He was and who the Bible says He was, let me ask you this: If Jesus did not exist as one person, who did what the Bible says He did, and who was who He said He was, then why would so many Christians (especially early Christians who had known Jesus personally) have died for their faith in Him? Why would Christianity have continued for so long if Jesus didn’t really exist and do the things the Bible says? Are people really so crazy and blind that they would continue believing in Him for over two thousand years?
I’m not sure where you’ve read about Greek translations of the Bible that don’t match up to the Bible we have today. Of all the literary works that we accept as accurate today (like Homer’s The Odyssey, for example), the Bible is backed up by more historical documents that agree with what we have today than any other work. What I mean is that there are thousands upon thousands of sources that show the same meaning and translation for the Bible as it today, but there are only maybe a thousand or less sources that back up The Odyssey.
I know this is long, but please bear with me. Only two points to go.
I completely agree with you that much of what is (or has been) done in the name of religion is hideous, disgusting, and absolutely wrong. I know many other Christians who would agree with you as well. But it’s important to remember that Jesus didn’t call people into organized religion. And it’s important to remember that people are not perfect – we’re far from it. People make mistakes. People do the wrong things. But does this mean that what people do always reflect what God desires? Please don’t think that Christians are going to be perfect examples of what Jesus taught and what God wants in our lives. We are sinful – even after we accept Christ. We will continue to fail, but God is making us new in Christ and making us more like Him. The good things you see in our lives are the things God is doing through us. The bad things you see us doing are our own bad and wrong choices – not God’s. All we can do (and should do) is ask for forgiveness from you for the ways in which our wrong choices have hurt you.
Finally, you said if there is a God who judges, you’d like to be judged on the good things you have done. But when we judge something, do we only look at the good? Take the Olympics for example (since they’re on now). When a judge gives a score for an athlete, it’s the mistakes that generally matter the most. One big mistake and your score will suffer greatly. And these scores come from imperfect judges.
But the God who judges us is a perfect judge. He is holy in every way – completely perfect and without mistakes. He cannot tolerate sin at all because He is perfectly good. To win the competition in God’s book, you must have a perfect score. You must be without mistake. So the question is not how many good things have you done. The question is this: how have you fallen short?
If you’ve fallen short, God has no choice but to judge you as imperfect. You have sinned – you have fallen short (just as I have). So if we are to be judged on our own works, we will lose.
But God has given us the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus, who had no sin, died for us to take away our sin. So that everyone who believes in Him (who He says He is and what He promises) and professes Him as Lord can have a perfect score when it is time for God to judge. For those who believe in Christ, God will not judge based on their imperfect works. Instead, God will look at Jesus perfect life and perfect works and then give us a perfect score. Then we’ll be able to join God in Heaven.
Before you respond, I want to ask you for forgiveness if I have offended you or my words are not perfect. I am not perfect. I prayed for quite some time before responding because I wanted God’s words to flow through me. But it’s quite likely that I still made mistakes. If so, please forgive me for those mistakes and we can work together to come to an understanding.
I will be praying that God will continue to have His Holy Spirit work in you while you ask these questions and seek the Truth.
.-= Paul Williams´s last blog ..Is Malachi 3:10 the Only Place in the Bible Where God Tells Us to Test Him =-.
Whoa…that was way too long. Sorry!!!
@Forest.
Hey. Thanks for sharing your observations.
I completely agree with some of your observations – the world is a mixture of good and evil, beauty and disgust. Ultimately, I trace those opposing realities to the human heart. We were given something beautiful (by God) and we managed to tarnish what made it beautiful. Yet, God does not give up on us and he continues to impress his goodness on this earth – thus, giving us glimpses of goodness.
I’m not sure as to your claims that Jesus was 3 or 4 guys at the same time. There is an organization called the Jesus Seminar. Tons of Christians dislike this group of scholars because they are so liberal and they discredit so many things about the Bible. However, even the Jesus seminar openly admits that Jesus did exist as a man. I’m not sure that anyone with scholarly credibility has suggested he was 3 or 4 guys.
The second half of the Bible, called the New Testament was written in Greek (Koine Greek). There are textual variants in some of the manuscripts (not accurate to call them Bibles), but there is no indication that there was efforts by translators to manipulate the morality. In fact, quite the opposite is true. In the Gospel of Mark Jesus is constantly calling his followers a bunch of dull folks because they just don’t get it. Peter, one of the most outspoken disciples, denied Jesus. This is not the type of thing that would have remained if the Gospels were revised.
Your right that a lot of horrid things have happened in the name of religion. Read the history books and it will make Bush seem like an angel. I’m thinking Crusades …
I’m going to banking my life on something opposite than what you said. That is that I will not be judged based on my nature. You see my nature is not always good. I have nice intentions, but am often led astray. My faith is build on one foundation – that I will not be judged by my actions, but will be judged according to my relationship with Jesus. If this is not the case and we are judged based on our actions the story of this world might have a much darker ending than any of us would like to imagine.
Thanks for stimulating some good discussion.
I have a question regarding a comment of yours and one of Matt’s.
Your comment: “It was hard not to cling to faith as the last, best hope.”
Matt’s comment: “There are no atheists in foxholes.”
Is the fact that life is scarier when you don’t believe in God a legitimate (or sufficient) reason to believe in God? For me at least, the answer is no.
.-= Mike Piper´s last blog ..Weekend Reading 2/19/2010 =-.
Mike, I think the point of both comments is that when we’re face to face with severe circumstances, we suddenly believe. The Bible says (loosely) that man has an inherent awareness of God. I think that’s true–at one time or another virtually everyone prays, even self declared non-believers. Usually it happens in a hospital bed, battlefield, courtroom, cemetary or jail cell. Sometimes it’s called “bargaining with the devil” but it’s actually quite the opposite.
When all is going well in life, or at least things are within the bounds of routine, it’s easy enough to deny that knowlege. We feel self sufficient and not only do we not have an immediate perceived need for God, but we also don’t want the restrictions on our lives and behavior that would follow such a belief.
For my own part, I don’t believe any more or less in God during one of life’s storms. But then I’m a seasoned believer, if there is such a thing, and I believe God is in both the high and low points in my life. The comments from myself and from Matt are more about people who claim not to believe.
I hope this answers your question.
Forest – First, thank you for asking honest questions. It’s been my hope that this faith forum would invite an exchange of ideas in the area of faith, even ideas that diverge from mine. I believe the open exchange of ideas helps us all to understand each others beliefs, and that can only help.
You raised a number of points and questions that I’ll try to address one at a time.
“I believe there is always one more question…” There was a time when I was deep into my questions too—I’m not saying this as a point of empathy–I really believed that deep, unanswerable questions represented sophistication and proper cynicism. No one was going to pull the wool over my eyes. But I came to realize that as long as we’re in this life, we’ll ALWAYS have questions, and the fact that we have them doesn’t make what ever we’re questioning improbable. At some point we make a choice to believe certain things and reject others.
We live in a world of infinite theories, but in the end there is an ultimate truth, whether or not we can either perceive it or understand it. Our questions, no matter how many we have, don’t change that outcome. Think of a child who perpetually asks “why” no matter how many answers she’s given. Academia is actually structured to function this way, and of course, passes that method on to us.
“…anything is possible”—maybe, but not all things are probable. Sometimes when we think this way, what we’re really doing is being none committal, holding our options open for…whatever.
“where did god come from” and “where did the point of creating the universe come from”—these questions are an attempt to quantify infinity, which we know we can’t do. In regard to God—suspend your thoughts for a moment and consider that there is one; what would he be like? He’d be infinite. The Alpha and the Omega, without beginning or end. Now as physical beings existing in a finite world, that’s “impossible”, everything must have a beginning. That may be true based on the knowledge that we now possess, but it doesn’t represent an absolute truth. There was a time when it was commonly accepted that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, and that the earth was the center of the universe. Today we know none of that is true, but based on the knowledge of the day, it was truth.
Knowledge isn’t truth, and I think that’s an important distinction.
“much research suggests he may have been 3 or 4 guys at the time”—I going to pass on this because I’m not aware of any serious scholar who believes this. There’s nothing to support it. Sadly, much of what passes as “knowledge” about Jesus is media regurgitation of various theories. I’ve seen many of these theories come and go in just my lifetime. The media loves the shock value of the sensationalism, so they’ll carry the theories to the ends of the earth. But I compare it to the Kennedy assassination, in that the farther we move from the actual event the more numerous and preposterous the theories get. This is part of man’s nature.
If you believe that there are translation errors, particularly re: morals, I’d suggest some deep study. I think much of that belief comes from pop culture sources like the DaVinci Code, which the author initially admitted was merely a story.
On Islam holding Jesus in high esteem as a prophet—please read the Koran—I read something in it that a Muslim cleric was not able to answer: according to that holy book, the “prophet Jesus” is the messiah who comes to Earth on judgment day. I think there’s some confusion in Islam on Jesus, and though I’ve read the Koran, I’m not an expert on Islam.
In regard to awful things being done in the name of religion, I totally agree with you. Religion has been perverted and twisted to fit nearly any objective we can concoct. The Bible confirms that God condemns this perversion. But I also believe religion gets a bad rap in many ways–please read my post on this site, “Does Religion Really Cause War” for more on my thoughts on that topic. It’s not in the post, but I was extremely uncomfortable with the previous administrations hints of God in their policies, but I digress.
OK, let me wrap it up on this key point…
“If there is a god that judges then I like to think I will be judged on my good nature, will to fulfill happiness of loved ones and the world in general and the fact that I just try hard to be a good person. If a god judged me on my following of them, I feel that is a bit egotistical and I would rather burn in hell, hang in purgatory or experience whatever kind pain or suffering awaits me.”
Logically, the idea that we’re saved by virtue of being a “good person” is too subjective to be valid. Everyone thinks of themselves as BASICALLY good people, so where’s the dividing line? This is a very common human belief, but if you think about it from God’s perspective, it gives us the ability to save ourselves which can’t be true in the face of an almighty God.
As far as God being egotistical—if God is all powerful, the central fact is that HE, not us, defines good and evil. It can’t be any other way. Yes, God’s standard of salvation for us is our loyalty to him, and though we may not like that, it is the only possibility based on logic alone. God is not subjugated by democracy! He can (and does) choose those who are devoted to him, over those who “do good”.
It isn’t that we aren’t required by God to do good, but good to God looks different than good in the eyes of man. Often when any of us do good, we do it either to prove our own righteousness to ourselves or to others, for self-agrandizement or in an attempt at self promotion. According to the Bible, “all of (our) good deeds are as filthy rags before the Lord”; that isn’t because God is cruel, it’s because he sees into the heart of Man and knows the real reasons we do what we do.
Think about it, our courts and legislatures can’t even always sort out good and evil, how can we expect God to abide by our definitions? No, we’re supposed to abide by HIS pronouncements. That’s a hard pill for many to swallow, and a very common reason people don’t believe. It’s not always that we don’t believe, it’s often more that we don’t agree, which is something entirely different. But the fact that we don’t agree with something doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
Long winded here, but you’ve asked some brilliant questions that I hope I and others have addressed in some intelligent fashion.
Feel free to add any additional comments, or if you’d like, you have my email and can handle it that way.
Kevin
Hey Everyone, I am not offended at all! I did not expect such a response though and it’s impossible for me to respond to everyone, so I guess i’ll just windle on about a few points here. Much of my talk was ramble and not backed up with solid research so I am sure I said a few misinformed or badly structured things….
I also hope I never offended anyone here either, it’s never my intention but I will be asking some questions in this comments…. As I said none are meant to offend.
Firstly, I felt everybody thought I did not believe in God…. Well yes I don’t believe in god necessarily but I am open. The Christian God may well be the God that exists but then it could be the Native American God, which is essentially Nature itself….
I really really think God has to stop being called HE, this is not constructive for society and definitely pushes Christianity in the wrong direction, I believe a god would be sexless if a god existed. I don’t know if God is every referred to have a sex in the bible.
On that note, why have there never been any female prophets and why is god not sending a new prophet in these troubled times?
As for infinity and the one more question thing, I agree none of it matters. With my philosophy I am always content just not knowing. I don’t see it as non-committal, I see it as contentment with not knowing.
Here is a situation that outlines a major problem I see with holding God as the Almighty. Pain and Suffering happens at the hands of ourselves everyday. We cause war, we kill each other, we argue, we create things for money and then harm our own civilization (thinking Monsanto and other evil corps here). But when a child is born with a bad illness or disability (say the only part of his/her body that can be moved is the eyes for example) then the child has to live a life of misery. A life of absolute pain and suffering and only the occasional joy….. Now why would a just God do this to any human. Variations of this happen every day. As God’s beloved creation we should all be born pure and equal. Our troubles should come from the world, not conception and birth itself.
The Koran, I am part way through the Koran, it certainly is a different book to the bible but definitely carries through many core beliefs. As it is a newer religion it tends to dwell on social problems of the time and many believe the writings are time sensitive to deal with a lot of bad stuff related to still existing pagan ways, such as people murdering daughters as they were not as useful as sons… etc etc. Essentially it is a very pure and good religion, much like Christianity and if a Christian and Muslim sat down to discuss their faiths based on knowledge from respective holy books they would share a LOT in common. A lot of misconceptions are thrown around about Islam. No1 women do not have to cover. This is based on your reading of the Koran but it’s coming more and more to light that it was specific to the prophets wives who were not safe at the time. Many Muslim women here in Egypt do not cover and still consider themselves Muslim. Muslim’s are also encouraged to read the Torah and Bible. The stuff about Muslims on the mainstream media is all very very skewed (trust me on this, I live in Egypt
)… I could go on about misconceptions of Islam forever but I better stop as it’s way off topic! Basically I want to let people know that a shared belief and love of God exists between these two faiths that media pushes to oppose each other….
The Bible and Christianity have been followed for many years but I don’t think that gives any indication of it’s truth. Buddhism is much older and considering it has never used war to push itself on other nations it is surprising how wide spread it really is. Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have blood on their hands when it comes to “liberating, converting, or saving” many of the regions that now follow the respective religion.
As for historical analysis… I think Jesus most likely existed. They have found possible census data for him, found many references (like the earliest reference of Christ just found here in Egypt last year. A bowl depicted in Greek with the words Jesus The Magician but it could have been referring to another person called Christos). I agree many events in the Bible (Torah, Koran and any Holy Book) can be backed up with history but is it too crazy to conceive that the stories have become grander over the years.
For example Moses parting the red sea. This story could have taken place over many years, the sea could have dried up and allowed him to cross…. Some time later the Romans could have tried to cross when the sea was just low but were swept away… I don’t know for sure but just using this as an example.
God creating the earth in seven days. Tell to a normal person with no science learning that the world was created over a course of 70million years, back in early Ad…. They would not understand. So why not create an easier story and push moral values with it. This is exactly the point of other Christian fables, such as Asops.
I’m not saying the Bible has to be accurate for God to exist, just that I don’t think it’s wise to follow just one book and one savior. If I am wrong then as I mentioned earlier God needs to send a new Prophet soon because Hell is going to get full!!
We have all sinned so so bad that surely just by following Jesus that is not forgiveness…. as we continue to sin everyday. Almost everytime you use an electronics device you SIN, Coltan is being exploited from the mines in Congo and many people are dying so we can have a mobile phone. Everytime we get in a car we sin as we pollute the Earth created by God. Everytime we use a piece of cheap equipment made in China or Taiwan or even some places in USA we sin as we have taken advantage of cheap labor….. We are all daily maybe even hourly sinners. Surely following one man can’t take all this away? Surely we are all hell bound?
I really want to keep going, but I have to stop and get on with work. I really appreciate your thoughts and comments….
….Oh one last thing on Bible stories. I think everyone should read the bible (and other holy books). The stories hold excellent morals that we should all abide by.
I see the story of Noah and the Arc as a perfect example. Parellel that with today. There is a huge storm coming and if we don’t do something to preserve, everything will be destroyed.
Maybe it’s high time we do build a place of some sort to start storing eggs and fetus’s from the various animals of the world. I know places exist where Humans will survive (sadly mostly rich, high end government officials and influencing families will be the ones to survive and carry on our race!).
Ahhhh I don’t have time to edit this comment. Bye bye for now…..
.-= Forest´s last blog ..Save Money On Printing =-.
Forest, my response to your last comment is longer than the original post, so I’ll email it to you…
If anyone reading this thread would like a copy of it, please request it here in the comments and I’ll email it to you.
Thanks,
Kevin
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People do get made when you mention Jesus… for that reason I don’t mention Jesus. If you mention God, people usually are OK with that…
one of the first things I read on Christianity is this link (I read in a booklet form). the link is cool because you can share with people.
http://www.the-highway.com/ultimate_questions.html
see the part about what is God like… good stuff.
You can avoid making people mad by not mentioning Jesus, but when you mention God and get to the part about God’s wrath–what Jesus came to save us from–you’ll lose them anyway. Take Jesus and God’s wrath out of a discussion about God, and you’re talking about a god made in Man’s image. People will talk about that all day, but if it isn’t the true God, then it’s just a fantasy.